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  • slcdragonfan I'm doing my part, ask those that aren't.

    Oh' right, you want to beat up the good guys about the bad guys. Rally your crew to go into ......

    The loudest voice for tolerance comes from the most intolerant people.

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    • Originally posted by chhspantherfan View Post
      slcdragonfan I'm doing my part, ask those that aren't.

      Oh' right, you want to beat up the good guys about the bad guys. Rally your crew to go into ......

      If it doesn't apply to you, don't take it personally. That's the way it works.

      Good song.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by slcdragonfan View Post

        Your recommendation to address the issue is...?
        - There is not a simple solution (obviously).
        - We have to do "something" (obviously).


        Mental health? Are people mentally ill in Europe, UK, Australia? Do they play video games? Are they a divided culture politically? What is different between them and us?
        - Mentally unstable "people" have been amongst us forever the world over and always will be.

        In Australia, the difference is they cared enough to do something. We don't. The only ones actively working to do SOMETHING are those who have lost someone...Parkland, Uvalde, Sandy Hook. Thus my statement. We took action after the OKC bombing, we took action after 9/11, we took action after the Beirut bombings. Hell, we took action with lawn darts.
        - I just don't see that banning the AR-15 style will do much of anything. There's millions of this style of weapon in the U.S. The fact there are millions more semi-automatic rifles in the same caliber but less scary looking makes me think banning that specific looking rifle would do little to change the environment in our society. An environment that seems to make buying a gun and using it to kill someone would be an acceptable action (in the gunman's mentally ill mind).

        The action we took that was allowed to expire in 2003/4 reduced mass murder shootings. Yes, we can't PROVE cause and effect but we certainly could try it.
        Thinking that banning a specific "looking" weapon will make much of any impact is doing next to nothing. It may make some feel better about themselves but has/will anything substantially changed? I get it. These weapons "look" scary but they are functionally no different than other semi-automatic rifles that have been around for 70 years. I'm all for regulating guns. I have no issue with licensing firearms, requiring reoccurring training, serious background checks, waiting periods, specific red-flags, etc. If you have mental issues...you don't get a gun.

        I don't wish anyone's family harm, but it is glaringly clear that we will just keep on until everyone has suffered a loss.
        - What I do believe is we, as a nation, must change how we perceive, project, and react to people who use guns to harm others. We (people) weren't this way (as much) in prior generations. I believe we have to change our culture (regarding this specific issue) back to a state where the "person" responsible for these acts are looked upon as despicable vile unhuman evil cowardly and will have their body dumped somewhere unknown untraceable and be forgotten. I don't believe changing our society/culture is undoable. Hell, look at the changes shaping our culture today. Don't tell me it can't be done. It can.
        - My daughter was there. The impact on her has been tangible. Don't presume to tell me I don't get it. But slapping an emotional band aid of banning AR-15 "style" weapons won't stop evil people from doing evil with less scary looking semi-automatic weapons. I think we have to change the narrative to the human's emotional and mental view of their world that makes them believe using a gun to attack their perceived worldly shortfalls would be an acceptable action. I think you have to attack the hopelessness these people must feel to do something like this. Exactly "how", hell, I don't know. I'm not that smart. But I have to believe if we as a people once held the belief this action was abhorrently uncivilized then we can make it that way again. As well as implementing/enforcing what safe guards we can.
        Last edited by ravnmem; 05-18-2023, 11:34 AM.
        "We would betray our finest traditions if we attempt to curb the simple expression of opinion. This we should never do, no matter how distasteful the opinion may be to the vast majority of our people." -- President Harry S. Truman 1950
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Carefully honed stupidity is a powerful marketing commodity...
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Moralistic Narcissism (from the left and the right) is our greatest challenge...
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” - Thomas Paine

        Comment


        • Originally posted by slcdragonfan View Post

          I left out Santa Fe.

          Do you deny that is how he aligned himself? You think the media put up his social media posts and put the tats on him? I'm not sure, maybe it was random, but weren't a number of his targets non-white? Maybe that correlated to the shopping population at the time though?

          Or is it possible the sources you are watching are in denial and spinning themselves?

          Here's one think we can probably all agree on. He seemed mentally ill. Or was.
          Also, was able to purchase any weapon he wanted even with that apparent illness.
          Also was able to kill 8 and wound 7 more (I am out of town, my count may be off) in 30s. THIRTY SECONDS. Think he could do that with a 9mm at that distance?

          Basically though, who cares what he identified as? It's the murders and body count that matters.
          I will agree that some people are just nuts and it often has nothing to do with politics.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ravnmem View Post
            - What I do believe is we, as a nation, must change how we perceive, project, and react to people who use guns to harm others. We (people) weren't this way (as much) in prior generations. I believe we have to change our culture (regarding this specific issue) back to a state where the "person" responsible for these acts are looked upon as despicable vile unhuman evil cowardly and will have their body dumped somewhere unknown untraceable and be forgotten. I don't believe changing our society/culture is undoable. Hell, look at the changes shaping our culture today. Don't tell me it can't be done. It can.
            - My daughter was there. The impact on her has been tangible. Don't presume to tell me I don't get it. But slapping an emotional band aid of banning AR-15 "style" weapons won't stop evil people from doing evil with less scary looking semi-automatic weapons. I think we have to change the narrative to the human's emotional and mental view of their world that makes them believe using a gun to attack their perceived worldly shortfalls would be an acceptable action. I think you have to attack the hopelessness these people must feel to do something like this. Exactly "how", hell, I don't know. I'm not that smart. But I have to believe if we as a people once held the belief this action was abhorrently uncivilized then we can make it that way again. As well as implementing/enforcing what safe guards we can.
            Back in the day, we never thought about shooting someone...even if bullied. Something has changed culturally. I do think that we should take a closer look at some of the prescription medications, seems like a lot of shooters are on them. Not like they were in great shape before but wondering if this might help push them over the edge, make them bolder or something. Not saying this is the only factor, but it doesn't get enough attention.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by slcdragonfan View Post
              It's going to take YOUR dead kids or grandkids before ya'll do anything. I get it. #notmine
              We'd probably listen a little more if the same people vigorously pushing for gun control showed even a tiny bit of concern for all the fentanyl and violence coming over the border. Or weren't the same people who are vigorously pushing to kill freedom of speech and much more.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ravnmem View Post
                - What I do believe is we, as a nation, must change how we perceive, project, and react to people who use guns to harm others. We (people) weren't this way (as much) in prior generations. I believe we have to change our culture (regarding this specific issue) back to a state where the "person" responsible for these acts are looked upon as despicable vile unhuman evil cowardly and will have their body dumped somewhere unknown untraceable and be forgotten. I don't believe changing our society/culture is undoable. Hell, look at the changes shaping our culture today. Don't tell me it can't be done. It can.
                - My daughter was there. The impact on her has been tangible. Don't presume to tell me I don't get it. But slapping an emotional band aid of banning AR-15 "style" weapons won't stop evil people from doing evil with less scary looking semi-automatic weapons. I think we have to change the narrative to the human's emotional and mental view of their world that makes them believe using a gun to attack their perceived worldly shortfalls would be an acceptable action. I think you have to attack the hopelessness these people must feel to do something like this. Exactly "how", hell, I don't know. I'm not that smart. But I have to believe if we as a people once held the belief this action was abhorrently uncivilized then we can make it that way again. As well as implementing/enforcing what safe guards we can.
                1. Thank you for the response.
                2. I am so sorry to hear that, she must have been and still is most likely terrified. PTSD is a real thing, I hope she gets some help to talk about it. I am sure you were/are deeply concerned.

                3. You keep talking about 'scary-looking' weapons and I keep talking about weapon attributes such as velocity and magazine size and the difference in damage between say a 9mm and these shells. That comes across as not really listening but rather voicing a canned response.

                4. Why is an 'emotional bandaid' when we did it before and it seemed to work?

                5. As for the bolded about changing the narrative, that sounds great but how is it actionable?

                6. Will we ban anything? I think not...or at least until the generation that grew up being taught how to do wound care in 5th grade takes over. But your last bolded sentence about implementing/enforcing what safeguards we can is doable. There are a number of proposed options that get pushed into committee and disappeared ... raising the age limit, changing the gun buying process, especially for these types of weapons, better integration of mental health judgements with purchase, etc.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by slcdragonfan View Post

                  1. Thank you for the response.
                  2. I am so sorry to hear that, she must have been and still is most likely terrified. PTSD is a real thing, I hope she gets some help to talk about it. I am sure you were/are deeply concerned.
                  - Thank you for this.

                  3. You keep talking about 'scary-looking' weapons and I keep talking about weapon attributes such as velocity and magazine size and the difference in damage between say a 9mm and these shells. That comes across as not really listening but rather voicing a canned response.
                  - I'm sorry you've gotten the impression I'm not listening or I've not thought about this or am only parroting canned responses. I kind of thought since we've taken the time to respond to one another that we might be listening to each other. I have my opinion as you have yours. Neither of us are presenting anything new or original but at least we're exchanging thoughts and views which, to me, should be the first steps in any solution.
                  - The point I'm trying to get across (likely rather clumsily) is to recognize there is very little difference between AR-15 style weapons and many common semi-automatic rifles that have been around for many decades. When I say AR-15 "style" I'm referring to the fact the original AR-15, manufactured by ArmaLite in the 1960s, sold their patent and trademark to Colt. When the patents expired in the 1970s many other manufacturers (most) started making a generic AR-15 like semi-automatic rifle for civilian sale. each with their own designation for their rifle. The .223 round used by AR-15 style rifle is common in many other non-military "looking" rifles with similar velocities and magazine capacities. I say "looking" because the AR-15 rifle has some decorative pieces to it that make it "look" military which, to many, makes it look like a big bad military (hence scary) weapon. At its core it's not dissimilar to many other common semi-automatic rifles. Semi-automatic simply means you have to pull the trigger for each shot. It fires at the rate you can pull the trigger singly for each shot.
                  (by the way...I do not or want to own an AR-15 style rifle)


                  4. Why is an 'emotional bandaid' when we did it before and it seemed to work?
                  - I think we've changed as a society / culture. There are studies that support both sides of this idea. I'm sure we can each find and present them. I don't believe banning this one "style" of weapon will do much if anything change the fact (hence band aid) that we've changed as a society. My belief is it's the utter hopelessness and anger that triggers some of these people with mental issues. And the solution to that is waaaay more difficult to solve.

                  5. As for the bolded about changing the narrative, that sounds great but how is it actionable?
                  - In the same way that current societal changes are taking place in our culture.

                  6. Will we ban anything? I think not...or at least until the generation that grew up being taught how to do wound care in 5th grade takes over. But your last bolded sentence about implementing/enforcing what safeguards we can is doable. There are a number of proposed options that get pushed into committee and disappeared ... raising the age limit, changing the gun buying process, especially for these types of weapons, better integration of mental health judgements with purchase, etc.
                  - Agree. They shouldn't "disappear" in committee but will until both sides can work together on reasonable, limited, common sense solutions. Both sides have to agree on a middle ground without one side fearing if they ban this thing then they're coming after the next thing. For my part...I don't have an issue with putting restrictions around firearms. The 2A is a constitutional right but so is the 1A and there are lawful restrictions even on it.
                  ...
                  "We would betray our finest traditions if we attempt to curb the simple expression of opinion. This we should never do, no matter how distasteful the opinion may be to the vast majority of our people." -- President Harry S. Truman 1950
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Carefully honed stupidity is a powerful marketing commodity...
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Moralistic Narcissism (from the left and the right) is our greatest challenge...
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” - Thomas Paine

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ravnmem View Post
                    ...
                    Again, thank you for the reasoned discussion.

                    It seems we are more similar than dissimilar after reading this response. No need to rehash the dusagreements at this point...

                    My belief is it's the utter hopelessness and anger that triggers some of these people with mental issues. And the solution to that is waaaay more difficult to solve.

                    I agree strongly here.

                    I apologize for the implication that you (or most of us) don't 'care'. Like all of us, I am frustrated and would like to see something happen. It truly is sad that your daughter was there. Part of my anger was that my daughter shops there often, I can only imagine what distress your family is in.

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                    • I was at Hawaiian Brothers not too long ago

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