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  • Originally posted by JoeC View Post

    Again, how old are you, again? Absolutely no harm or disrespect meant but checking boxes...you’re reaching lol Please don’t get me wrong, obviously I love our (my) Lobos and probably am as ‘green-blood passionate’ as anyone, but it is not cut and dried that the 2018 team was the best Longview team ever. First and foremost it is virtually senseless to juxtapose previous teams to any of our more current teams. They could never play each other; therefore, any comparative analysis would just be clothed in supposition (***-umption).

    When considering the best you also have to factor in the competition each team faced. Most importantly, as a reminder, I am 65 (46 years a raucous PTSD Lobos fan) and have seen some past-Longview teams (overall) that was just as if not more dynamic than the 2018 group. Let’s not forget that this 2018 team edged Lufkin 35-28, struggled with Rockwall 42-35 and Spring 14-0, outlasted Tascosa 45-42 and slipped by West Brook 35-34 thanks to the grace of the Football God’s for a most timely fumble and recovery. We’ve had past teams that would have absolutely crushed those aforementioned teams.

    That 1975 Doug Cox Top Ranked Lobos OL and defense was straight up monsters of the midway and if not for a called back (penalty) what was surely a TD and an unprecedented 62 yard FG, it’s a very good chance we likely wouldn’t even be having this discussion. In fact, Doug Cox coached defenses were straight up brutish and thus, the moniker “Mean Green”. I can think of only a couple of 2000’s defenses even coming close to the physicality of Cox defenses - 2019 being one of them. We must remember that the 1975 team had to face all District Champs along the way and not a watered-down playoff format. That team faced no less than 7 top 10 ranked teams, while the defense earned 6 hard-fought shutouts in 13 games. Just mentioning players like Llewellyn Fambles, Leo McCoy, Elvis Bradley, David Morris, Johnny Fuller, Joh Henry Jones, Henry Williams, Finis Snoddy, Jeff Stone, Thomas Cook, Steve Bradham and Hosea Taylor sends chills down my spine - as these guys are long-standing Lobo legends. This generation speaks highly of Aaron Johnson and Tyler McCray’s athleticism and rightfully so but if any of them had seen the magic of Llewellyn Fambles and Leo McCoy, they’d gain a better understanding and new found respect. Another thing that must be considered is that those old school kids were hard-nosed (garden-fed unlike this junk food generation) and lived for defense while this generation for the most part, is offensive-driven. This generation seems to relish offense while abdicating defense. This is why stats comparative analysis is near extraneous.

    And that 97 group even with the loss to Katy, OMG! If we may recall, that team vaulted to No. 1 in the Nation after knocking off highly-touted Killeen Ellison. Talking about check marks starting with the likes of Fred Talley and Jay Hurst, Lee Nix, Lee Jackson, Leon Bell, Jacob Pierce, Shawn Byrdsong, Dexter Daniels, Jessie James, William Morrison, Jamie Brown, Ben Price, Tracy Brooks, David Waterhouse, Jamille Butcher...I could go on as this team too was stacked.

    And good Lord that 2004 group remove the injuries - repeating the talent would be redundant, would have absolutely destroyed all of those aforementioned teams. Not to mention that Top Ranked 1977 team that was absolutely loaded to the gills with talent but was railroaded in Lufkin (home cooking) and shackled with only one team from each district making post season. And I didn’t even mention the 2009 team with a healthy Tyler and Fortson.

    I am just keeping it real. I am absolutely grateful for the 2018 group bringing home the gold but in no way does this make them the best team Longview has EVER assembled. And I know you didn’t say so but your check marks all but implied it.

    Great team, even greater story but Longview has had many great football teams for a very long time as evidenced by our Lobos being the ‘Eighth Winningest Program’ in Texas High School football history.

    You’re biased because you saw the 2018 team win the gold and the offensive numbers they piled up but I am biased because I’ve been fortunate to have witnessed all of the great Lobo teams and some of those 70’s staggering Cox ‘Mean Green’ defensive units...46 years and counting. But regardless, I understand and appreciate your romance with the 2018 team. I trickled a few tears of joy myself. I mean 81 years was a very long time for all of us diehard faithfuls and 46 years and several painful disappointments for me. In short, it does our program a grave injustice to elevate one team above all the rest just because the ball just happened to have bounced its way. This is why I am more likened to say, this 2018 Championship team was ONE OF THE GREATEST LOBOS TEAMS EVER...and am LOBO PROUD content with just leaving it at that.

    Go Lobos...diehard forever!
    7-10 teams....

    By my count, you mentioned 5 teams (one in which I played on) + giving a shoutout to 2019's defense.

    That's well within range and further proves my point.

    By the way, I actually agree with most of your post. '75, '04, '97, '09 were always among those 7-10 teams...that's a given. I'll even throw in 2005 with first round upset and everything since talent wise, it wasn't way off from 2004. But honestly, when I sit down and think about it....10 may be a bit high.

    Us being the 8th (soon to be 7th) all time winningest football program in history does not mean we have had a bunch of 2018 teams running around throughout history. It means that we've had a bunch of good-great teams... but 2018 wasnt good or great....it was elite, rare and made UIL (not just school) record books.

    You say that checklist is a reach but it isnt. It showcases why the 2018 team was THE best team we have had, assembled....whatever you wanna call it...they were the best.

    I dont necessarily believe that team had THE best defense, heck I put 2019 defense above it but its one of the best defenses, assembled with THE best special teams unit and THE best offense ever. And I'll debate that with anyone.

    A Lobo team threw for nearly 4,000 yards with a near 2,000 yard receiver (what?!)....and STILL...a bull like Jessie broke records and when he wasnt getting the ball...you had to deal with Keilyn Williams who was a certified ankle breaker...a true "now you see him, now you dont" player ....a rarity in his own right. Mind you, all of this was happening behind the best Lobo OL I've seen...and a group of 3 TEs that were pretty solid.

    It's a little irrelevant but since it keeps being brought up, I'm 30. I'm not sure if thats supposed to be used to debunk what I am saying but, good luck with that lol thanks to family, many of the older posters here and the best history site in the nation for a HS team created by '07, who is also in my age group, I am not totally ignorant to what came before me. Not to mention, many of the teams (not all) that you could bring up probably came in my lifetime anyway.

    By the way, the 2022 and 2023 teams will be in this conversation too. Mark my words.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by WolverBean View Post

      And to be fair the weather was bad during that Westfield game if was clear and no wind we score more then 14
      The worst weather that we probably endured that entire decade in terms of temp and precipitation...although Midway '17 was awful. Yet, there was never any doubt who would win that game.

      Like you said, clearer day, even worse loss for Westfield.

      Barely beating Rockwall wasnt a bad thing either. That was a good Rockwall team led by the best WR we'd played in a very, very long time. Maybe Dez Bryant in '06 but I'm not even sure that he was the best WR on that Lufkin team, Ralph Thomas was.

      We were smoking Tascosa pretty bad at one point. Thought we already had the game in a bag and became super conservative. King acknowledged that immediately after the game and took sole responsibility. We keep our foot on their necks, no telling how ugly that one gets.

      Lufkin-Longview is the best rivalry in the state. Game will naturally be close some years even when it shouldn't because of that.

      West Brook was a prime example of coming out flat...but it was also a test of response to adversity. The best teams respond to it, and 2018 did it. But I honestly believe that if we play West Brook 5 times that year, 3 of those times end in a 21+ point win.

      Last edited by WP4L™; 04-10-2021, 11:08 AM.

      Comment


      • 0-0 game at halftime between Longview and Wakeland
        THE HISTORY OF LONGVIEW LOBO FOOTBALL

        1937 1A, 2018 6A DIVISION II STATE CHAMPIONS
        1997
        5A D1, 2008 4A D1, 2009 4A D1 State Finalist
        40 District Championships
        '47, '75, '10, '17 State Semi-Finalist
        '40, '86, '96, '02, '07, '15 State Quarterfinalist
        '04, '11, '12, '13, '20 Regional Finalist
        '83, '85, '87, '89, '91, '93, '01, '06, '14, '19 Area Finalist
        '24, '31, '34, '36, '42, '67, '72, '74, '76, '80, '84, '92, '03, '05, '16 Bi-District Finalist

        Comment


        • Wakeland wins, 1-0. Lobos should’ve had a penalty kick in the last 8 minutes. What a season.
          THE HISTORY OF LONGVIEW LOBO FOOTBALL

          1937 1A, 2018 6A DIVISION II STATE CHAMPIONS
          1997
          5A D1, 2008 4A D1, 2009 4A D1 State Finalist
          40 District Championships
          '47, '75, '10, '17 State Semi-Finalist
          '40, '86, '96, '02, '07, '15 State Quarterfinalist
          '04, '11, '12, '13, '20 Regional Finalist
          '83, '85, '87, '89, '91, '93, '01, '06, '14, '19 Area Finalist
          '24, '31, '34, '36, '42, '67, '72, '74, '76, '80, '84, '92, '03, '05, '16 Bi-District Finalist

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LoboFan07 View Post

            I’m not gonna go down each one, but I do question what team was more dynamic than our 2018 team?? Unless our definitions of dynamic are different.

            And yes, the 2018 team struggles against some teams and had to have some lucky breaks go their way. But that’s what makes them great. They forced a fumble vs Lufkin that lead up to the winning score. They forced a fumble vs West Brook that won the game. You can say that struggled against Westfield, but they made stop after stop inside the 25 against that Mustang squad and never gave up a single point

            I think it’s a little funny that you bring up that Westfield game as Longview struggling, when the 97 team only beat Ellison by the exact same score. A lot of people say that the 75 team lost because of that field goal, and obviously it had a lot to do with it, but they also managed just 120 yards of offense that day.

            I don’t like comparing the eras personally. Completely different styles of football and mind sets at the time. You won with defense strictly back then. The 2018 team won with offense, and the defense stepping up when we needed to.

            Only team I really had an issue with is the 2009 team that you mention. They were very good, don’t get me wrong. But 2018 beats them down. I think you forget how close we were to losing to Midway in round 2, easily could’ve lost to Newman Smith in round 3. Struggled at Texarkana. Lost at Lufkin. Only really hit their stride after falling down 20 points in round four. They were a rollercoaster of a team that found their groove at the exact right moment after scrapping by the first three rounds.
            I didn’t make this post to initiate a debate as there isn’t one in respect to anything I said. I made the post to solicit “my perspective” on the matter. Subsequent responses to “my perspective” have been rhetorical but mostly redundant - pretty much unwittingly validating my response and perspective. Most importantly, to debate such an issue would in the end, prove pointless as it can never be settled on the field of play. However, dialogue is good as it affords everyone involved their platform and opinion.

            As Legendary Coach Bear Bryant said when asked “would you rather be good or lucky”, his response was for the ages: “I’d rather be both because that ball is shaped funny and just being good, will not get you there.

            There are a lot of inseparable things that goes into winning Championships, including luck (good and/or just plain bad), politics, injuries, inconceivable circumstances (e.g 62 yard field goal) and last but not least, just being collectively good and sometimes, well coached.

            Three games leading up to the 97 Championship game against Katy, Fred Talley struggled with a persistent ankle injury and just was not himself in none of those games. We all know the injury bug also hit 2004 and 2009 teams extremely hard also. Inarguably, remove or lessen the effectiveness of key players and it changes the dynamics of your team and disrupt your game-plan, which could prove crippling. What if? What if Kamden Perry had gotten injured in the semis or during the Championship game, would it have likely affected the team’s dynamics and outcome of those games? Of course it would have, that’s a rhetorical question.

            As WolverBean said “the 2018 team got it done” and as you’ve admitted “they got some lucky breaks along the way” that this proves my points as it surely does not elevates them above other great Lobo teams, as to say so would be rather simplistic. Most importantly, I said absolutely nothing negative about our 2018 State Champion Lobos as I too love them for relieving my PTSD.

            Finally, two things I’d like to briefly address: 1. The comparison - I don’t think Spring Westfield could have shined 97 Killeen Ellison’s shoes and 2. I said I didn’t mention 2009 to say that I chose to not mention 2009 and due both to their early struggles and late season key injuries; even so, I’d wager [if it were possible] that that 2009 LT team would also have taken out Tascosa and Westbrook as well. Bottom line, we’ll never know as in the end, it’s all conjecture. postulation, speculation and whatever synonyms are fitting but interesting dialogue, nonetheless.

            Peace!😎

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WolverBean View Post

              And to be fair the weather was bad during that Westfield game if was clear and no wind we score more then 14
              “Correctomundo”, you’re admitting that Westfield just wasn’t as good as they were hyped-up to be. I agree.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JoeC View Post


                That 1975 Doug Cox Top Ranked Lobos OL and defense was straight up monsters of the midway and if not for a called back (penalty) what was surely a TD and an unprecedented 62 yard FG, it’s a very good chance we likely wouldn’t even be having this discussion. In fact, Doug Cox coached defenses were straight up brutish and thus, the moniker “Mean Green”. I can think of only a couple of 2000’s defenses even coming close to the physicality of Cox defenses - 2019 being one of them. We must remember that the 1975 team had to face all District Champs along the way and not a watered-down playoff format. That team faced no less than 7 top 10 ranked teams, while the defense earned 6 hard-fought shutouts in 13 games. Just mentioning players like Llewellyn Fambles, Leo McCoy, Elvis Bradley, David Morris, Johnny Fuller, Joh Henry Jones, Henry Williams, Finis Snoddy, Jeff Stone, Thomas Cook, Steve Bradham and Hosea Taylor sends chills down my spine - as these guys are long-standing Lobo legends. This generation speaks highly of Aaron Johnson and Tyler McCray’s athleticism and rightfully so but if any of them had seen the magic of Llewellyn Fambles and Leo McCoy, they’d gain a better understanding and new found respect. Another thing that must be considered is that those old school kids were hard-nosed (garden-fed unlike this junk food generation) and lived for defense while this generation for the most part, is offensive-driven. This generation seems to relish offense while abdicating defense. This is why stats comparative analysis is near extraneous.
                One more thing about the 75 team. The week of the Permian game, starting QB Llewellen Fambles broke his hand in practice and didnt play. And Charlie Mitchell, maybe even better than Fambles, was injured on the way to the Young Street practice field during his sophomore or junior year, and didnt play again. They did let him take one snap and kneel late in the year, which was a very moving moment,

                I have to agree that the 75 team was the best I've ever seen.

                Comment


                • I have to stop watching the LV/DR game....it makes my stomach turn to watch that game and J.Hale on the field. they absolutely could not cover him. several plays had safety help and he was still wide open...if we had a QB that could get him the ball....my word.....got to quit...most frustrating damn thing....

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Kingwolf View Post
                    I have to stop watching the LV/DR game....it makes my stomach turn to watch that game and J.Hale on the field. they absolutely could not cover him. several plays had safety help and he was still wide open...if we had a QB that could get him the ball....my word.....got to quit...most frustrating damn thing....
                    Earlier in the football year, if you can remember...I said that I didnt see a secondary in all of 5A that could cover Hale. And I was very much right.

                    You're correct, Hale was flying open vs Ryan and for that matter...against HP too.

                    If he would've had even a Pete Robertson, that would've boosted the team a lot.

                    But, he didnt. Looking forward to better QB play in 2021.
                    Last edited by WP4L™; 04-10-2021, 07:30 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oldetexfan View Post

                      One more thing about the 75 team. The week of the Permian game, starting QB Llewellen Fambles broke his hand in practice and didnt play. And Charlie Mitchell, maybe even better than Fambles, was injured on the way to the Young Street practice field during his sophomore or junior year, and didnt play again. They did let him take one snap and kneel late in the year, which was a very moving moment,

                      I have to agree that the 75 team was the best I've ever seen.
                      The things I specifically recall the most about this game are 1. Llewellyn, which is my Brother-in-Law’s younger brother, did play sparingly in the first half but clearly, he was not up to full speed (it alludes me but I don’t recall his hand being broke??). 2. The long ride out there to Lubbock and that even longer ride back to the View, 3. The unbelievable 62 yrd FG and 4. The halfback pass from Johnny Fuller to our TE down to Permian’s goal line being penalized and called back I think for a holding infraction by the officiating crew. I remember the call being suspiciously late and to this day, I still think it was some West Texas area favorite dish cooking going on. For a long time, I tried blocking this nightmare from my memory but I was never able to shake it.

                      I am kinda nerdy about our Lobos. I have a rather extensive collection of original Longview News Journals sports articles dating all the way back to the 70’s but couldn’t bring myself to save this particular newspaper. Nor was I able to save copies of LNJ Newspaper articles of the 77 LP and 97 Katy losses. 😞

                      Yes Sir, it should be apparent that I agree about that 1975 group. That team “too”, was absolutely amazing - an elite group in every sense of the word indeed.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WolverBean View Post

                        We in a way helped kick start the Katy title runs? 🙃
                        Down 14-3 @ half...come out first possession of 2nd half...Jaime Brown can't corral a 3rd down pass...we never recover. Katy was methodical and physical that day. I still believe if we were better team. They just Debo'd Longview that day

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WP4L™ View Post
                          7-10 teams....

                          By my count, you mentioned 5 teams (one in which I played on) + giving a shoutout to 2019's defense.

                          That's well within range and further proves my point.

                          By the way, I actually agree with most of your post. '75, '04, '97, '09 were always among those 7-10 teams...that's a given.

                          By the way, the 2022 and 2023 teams will be in this conversation too. Mark my words.
                          In respect to 22-23 teams, you don’t have to convince me any further Sir. I am already stoked! 🔥🔥 Go Lobos!!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JoeC View Post

                            In respect to 22-23 teams, you don’t have to convince me any further Sir. I am already stoked! 🔥🔥 Go Lobos!!!
                            Man....its going to be a movie.

                            '21 has a chance to as well....as a matter of fact...my boy GeeTee sees us in the final game this year.

                            I hope he's right but I do see the '22 and '23 teams being better. Alot of things to address in the spring.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WP4L™ View Post
                              Earlier in the football year, if you can remember...I said that I didnt see a secondary in all of 5A that could cover Hale. And I was very much right.

                              You're correct, Hale was flying open vs Ryan and for that matter...against HP too.

                              If he would've had even a Pete Robertson, that would've boosted the team a lot.

                              But, he didnt. Looking forward to better QB play in 2021.
                              You were right. Going to be a crazy spring ball watching what happens.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by WP4L™ View Post
                                Man....its going to be a movie.

                                '21 has a chance to as well....as a matter of fact...my boy GeeTee sees us in the final game this year.

                                I hope he's right but I do see the '22 and '23 teams being better. Alot of things to address in the spring.
                                We are dynamic at all skill positions...

                                Comment

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